TinyXP Rev08 eXPerience

[b]Windows TinyXP Rev08 - Windows XP Professional Corp SP3 [/b] ORIGIN BY EXPERIENCE. [img]http://pcprogress.com/img/productpics/WINXP%20Pro%20Booklet%20cvr%20w_CD.jpg[/img] Windows TinyXP Rev08 -------------------- Thank you for trying this special unattended edition of Windows "TinyXP Rev08" This edition of Windows is based on the 04.14.2008 Service Pack 3 Final RTM (build 5512) Please read the rest of this info to find out whats included and whats removed from this installation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ADDED ITEMS & FEATURES ---------------------- 100% Unattended, just boot from the CD and format your drive or partition. Remember to back up your drive or partition before formatting it. You cannot use the "Repair Option" from the CD with this edition of Windows. You can use option 2 in the menu to boot into "Acronis True Image" with Universal Restore, this is safe for Vista along with Windows XP. Added Service Pack 3 RTM build 5512 (14th April 2008) Added Internet Explorer 7 (this is uninstallable) Added Windows Media Player 11 Added Windows Update Agent Added Required Hotfixes to April 2008 Added Flash For Internet Explorer Added Flash for Firefox, Opera and Netscape Added Prio (Task Manager priority and affinity saver) Added Royale Blue and Royale Noir themes (blue as default) Added Alternative Bliss Wallpaper Added Acronis Bootable Environment For Backup & Restore Added eXPerience Desktop Folder (Desktop Icon Layout, Hibernation, Keyboard Settings, Program Links, Registry Backup, Services Configuration Files, ShrinkXP Scripts, User Password) Added "DirectX Diagnostics, Disk Management, System Config" under "Accessories" on the Start Menu. Added "Local Users and Groups" under "Administrative Tools" on the Start Menu. Fixed IE7 icon (was showing IE6 icon) Added npdrmv2.dll, npdsplay.dll and npwmsdrm.dll to "Program Files\Windows Media Player" for streaming Windows Media files in Firefox and Opera. Added the following files to WINDOWS\system32 - cdimage.exe, CDR.exe, CHNGTEXT.EXE, CHOICE.COM, cmdow.exe, comdlg32.ocx, lame_enc.dll, LAYOUT.DLL, MAKECAB.EXE, MSCOMCTL.OCX, MSSTDFMT.DLL, pskill.exe, sleep.exe Also added the following DirectX 9 DLL files to system32: d3dx9_24.dll, d3dx9_25.dll, d3dx9_26.dll, d3dx9_27.dll, d3dx9_28.dll, d3dx9_29.dll, d3dx9_30.dll, d3dx9_31.dll, d3dx9_32.dll, d3dx9_33.dll, d3dx9_34.dll, d3dx9_35.dll, d3dx9_36.dll Added support for thousands and thousands of devices! Windows passes "Windows Genuine Advantage" checks. You do not need a product key (see I386\WINNT.SIF) ---------------------------------------------------------------- ADDED DRIVERPACKS ----------------- This installation includes all Bashrat The Sneaky driverpacks and also many additional third party driverpacks. These were all amalgamated into one single DRIVER.7z to save more space. Includes drivers for the following... -Broadband -Chipsets -CPU (AMDK8) -Graphics cards -Input Devices (Mouse, Keyboard etc) -LAN (Ethernet) -Mass Storage (+SATA) -Modems -Monitors -Scanners -Sound Cards -TV Cards -Webcams -Wireless LAN NOTE: Your devices must be plugged in and switched on for the drivers to be installed. Only the drivers that your system needs will be installed. ---------------------------------------------------------------- REMOVED COMPONENTS ------------------ Here are the components that are removed from this special eXPerience edition of Windows XP SP3. All components were removed with "nLite" v1.4.5 b2 COMPONENTS -All Languages With Non-English Characters (100Mb?) -Drivers - Printers, Display Adapters, Modems (53.74Mb) -Game Controller Images and Backgrounds (3.36Mb) -Music Samples (4.54Mb) -MSN Explorer (18.80Mb) -Windows Messenger (930Kb) -Manual Install and Upgrade (44Mb) -MS Agent (2.17Mb) -Out of Box Experience (OOBE) (5Mb) -Search Assistant (5.55Mb) -Security Center (110Kb) -Service Pack Messages (6Mb) -Tour (17.46Mb) -Error Reporting (140Kb) DIRECTORIES -cmpnents (25.7Mb) -DOCS (6.73Kb) -DOTNETFX (39.1Mb) -SUPPORT (12.8Mb) -VALUEADD (9.16Mb) Removing all these items saved about 355Mb from the ISO. This might be called "TinyXP" but it is intended to be as complete as possible. Only useless or otherwise redundant items have been removed. Do read the list above carefully. For most people, you will not even notice anything is missing, that is the aim. Also, because Windows XP has been reduced in size by a considerable amount, this has allowed the inclusion of a massive pool of drivers for all your devices! The drivers on this CD take up more space than the OS. Its about 250Mb for the I386 folder, 40Mb for the $OEM$ folder (contains IE7, DirectX files, Flash for IE etc) and then about 360Mb of added drivers. ---------------------------------------------------------------- DISABLED FEATURES ----------------- Hibernate is disabled, but still usable. System Restore is disabled, but can be enabled. Indexing Service is disabled. Windows File Protection is disabled. ---------------------------------------------------------------- REGISTRY TWEAKS --------------- There are far too many registry tweaks to mention here. Please see the file "ROOT\$OEM$\OTHER\List Of Tweaks.txt" for details. Windows is tweaked for the best possible user experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------- OTHER CHANGES ------------- SP2.CAB, SP3.CAB and DRIVER.CAB are merged into one "DRIVER.CAB" Hard disk space checks are disabled. Minimum memory requirement is disabled. TCPIP.SYS is set to allow 16,777,215 connections. UxTheme.dll is patched to allow non-Microsoft themes. Windows File Protection is disabled. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ISO File MD5: c53270abf92f6d9896c0ce5c2b24b48c ---------------------------------------------------------------- Redemption... http://forum.retestrak.nl/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Enjoy this fine release from eXPerience Released: 25th April 2008 ----------------------------------------------------------------

udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80
udp://open.demonii.com:1337
udp://tracker.coppersurfer.tk:6969
udp://exodus.desync.com:6969

thuvn205 (2008-04-26)

What do you mean? it's too big or too small? anyway it's nothing to worry about, just see his fire work on this release.

svas (2008-04-27)

I quote from nfo:
"Removing all these items saved about 355Mb from the ISO.
This might be called "TinyXP" but it is intended to be as
complete as possible. Only useless or otherwise redundant
items have been removed. Do read the list above carefully.
For most people, you will not even notice anything is
missing, that is the aim. Also, because Windows XP has
been reduced in size by a considerable amount, this has
allowed the inclusion of a massive pool of drivers for
all your devices! The drivers on this CD take up more
space than the OS. Its about 250Mb for the I386 folder,
40Mb for the $OEM$ folder (contains IE7, DirectX files,
Flash for IE etc) and then about 360Mb of added drivers."
That is why the size still around 600mb, there is no problem with it at all, this customized xp is far the best out there.
Experience has the shit...

spyguy007 (2008-04-27)

Great download speed, installing now!

Faat (2008-04-27)

Great upload,I assume.Is it in Dutch language? I would highly appreciate an answer,and let's all keep seeding,my pirate friends !

Faat (2008-04-27)

@ spyguy007 : can you tell me the install language ?Would appreciate an answer.Thanks !

ugay2k3 (2008-04-28)

thuvn205:
Installed, looks good but having one issue. My Creative jukebox Xtra mp3 player will not install when plugged in via usb.
I tested on the same machine with another copy of XPSP3 and it was detected right away when plugged in and WMP could synch to it.
With this install windows try's to install driver, fails to find .inf and says MPD failed. Yet if i go to "add hardware" from the control panel, it shows the name of the device. Any help?

hidetanner999 (2008-04-28)

eXperience, you rock. Any chance you'll release this same Rev08 without the driverpacks for those of us that one to keep the iso file handy for making Virtual Machines that don't need the same level of driver support? You did that with Rev06 but I sure would love to have the benefit of SP3 and other updates you've put in here.

danalexandre (2008-04-28)

Can anyone tell me if this release is in Dutch or english?

thuvn205 (2008-04-28)

First, this release is in English language, other languages you'll try yourself cuz most of them are removed. :)
Second, some hardwares... like portable device should bring us tones of matter so try to install all drivers in the CD belong that device. Also try to see the service for that device is enable or disable.
Hope this will help.

pandoras (2008-04-29)

Warning:
NOD32 reports virus (hacker tool) in file $OEM$\$$\System32\cmdow.exe

hidetanner999 (2008-04-29)

pandoras, its not a virus. cmdow.exe is a utility that can be used to hide windows - often used for creating unattended installs so that the end user doesn't see command line windows running install scripts and close them while running with the little X button. It is classified as a possible "hack" tool by some AV software, but you can go here to find out how to verify that the copy on your install is legit: http://www.commandline.co.uk/cmdow/

thuvn205 (2008-04-29)

Yes, most of his releases will need to do some patchs made by one of cmdow.exe tool and may cause virus alert, just feel free to use. I don't get any virus problem on any his releases so far.

pandoras (2008-04-30)

Thanks for the info...

danalexandre (2008-04-30)

Thanks for the answer thuvn205 =)

ChazzMatt (2008-04-30)

thank you to the poster who uploaded this but you forgo the reg fix eXPerience added to enable System Restore:
======
from eXPerience:
System Restore is not usable in this release but I have fixed that with a simple
registry file, no need to re-install System Restore at all, just run this as a .reg file:
[code]Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

; System Restore Service

"Start"=dword:00000002
NT\CurrentVersion\SystemRestore]
"DisableSR"=dword:00000000

"Start"=dword:00000000

"FirstRun"=dword:00000000
[/code]

ChazzMatt (2008-04-30)

eXPerience posted that reg fix on the torrent site he personally uploaded to. If you don't need System Restore, then don't worry about. If you try to enable System Restore, you will see you need this.
Just copy the text between the [code] words, paste into notepad text file.
Call it "SR", but save as ".reg" instead of ".txt". (Windows will ask you do you really want to change the extension? Say yes.) Save it to your desktop.
Then, double click the reg file and the fix will be added to the registry. You should then be able to enable System Restore.

ExTaCy1337 (2008-04-30)

Thanks for this man

ExTaCy1337 (2008-04-30)

Thanks ChazzMatt too, I have downloaded Rev 08 and uploaded 700mb too, I am going for a format now :) Thanks a lot for uploading thuvn205

Navirio (2008-04-30)

looks good does it have its own site like johnnys xp
not that resta nl site.....
Navi

someone110 (2008-05-01)

Ty man

pandoras (2008-05-01)

one more world about included cmdow.exe:
md5 checksum does not match with hash on

AndraBullar (2008-05-02)

Seen it in action, and it looks great! Installing it myself tomorrow, just need to back up my drivers and shit. I need to reinstall the OS because me PC is too screwed up to keep like this. Time for reincarnation.
Hoping for the best!

zmrman (2008-05-02)

Help, please. Can't get the burnt CD bootable.
Shouldn't there be a Setup.exe file somewhere?

thuvn205 (2008-05-02)

^_^
- Try to burn as slow speed as possible.
- Burn this .iso file via "burn from image" in Nero.
^_^

zmrman (2008-05-02)

thanks thuvn205, have done that but no success.
The CD-drive shows a nice Windows logo, but that's all.
Iso software and the CD show the following files:
BF01 folder,BOOT folder,OEM folder,Root folder,
autorun.inf, BF01.DAT,WIN51,WIN51P and WIN51P.SP3. Is that what the image should look like? Shouldn't there be a setup.exe file?

rocchowse (2008-05-02)

i have the following issue.
download, burn the iso file.
boot up from disc and it then goes through th emotions. it gets to the point about which partition to install. instead of showing my hard drive it says
Unknown Disk
(there is no disk in the drive)
this drive currently has windows xp on it and i am writing this now on with windows on this drive so it definately works.
could there be some missing sata driverS? i downloaded the asus sata drivers and slipstreamed them back into the image. but still the same thing. if i leave my usb hard drive plugged in it detects that ...
any help ?

rocchowse (2008-05-03)

ok ive checked bios and ide is shown there, i downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer but it says these are older than whats on the disk. so the drivers are there,
any other ideas??

thuvn205 (2008-05-03)

^_^
I don't test this release with portable SATA drive but did it with some releases before and also get problems (maybe eXPerience also notices in those releases but not with TinyRev08).
You should try to connect your sata drive internally rather than a sata hub (portable device), and set your sata device in BIOS as a IDE Primary HDD. I don't know if it works for you.
Good luck.
^_^

bilge_rat (2008-05-03)

Thanks, very nice. However I had a problem. I installed Opera but it will not run without the TinyXP install CD in the drive. Any ideas?

thuvn205 (2008-05-04)

^-^
This release you can see most of services is still there but alot of tweaks are applied so what we see is either disable or disable in services configuration section.
eXPerience also gives the Services Tuner folder in Destop for anyone to use to save RAM as much as wish.
I don't know why someone run Firefox and it requires the Installer CD, you may like to use the Portable Firefox version to avoid of it. :)
^-^

thuvn205 (2008-05-04)

^_^
Well, about services in XP all we know eXPerience are pretty good in considering much about it, not only him but also me & you or whoever may like to take some out at the specific involved works, time and future job. someone should like to remove as much as possible but some of us don't want it out in case he may use it again later.
That's why most of services are kept and either disbale or enable in his nearest release. Most of functionalities are there & they are up to date, normal user may not consider it's a Tiny one :)
So depend on what you will do with your pc, you can decide either take them out or remove. The more you take out the more faster you will get but also the more matters you will see in case you use that service again.
Don't belive me, just test yourself then you will be knowledged of what you will do after that cuz I can't make any of nice release like eXPerience till now.
I don't know why eXPerience said about hotfixes but I thik most of hotfixes are in sp3 already & should not say MS forgets to intergrated it in sp3. :)
^_^

bilge_rat (2008-05-07)

Hello, Opera will not run. Although using a portable version is a valid workaround, I am concerned that there is an obvious bug in TinyXP.
Another small problem I found, there is an unnamed icon in the control panel which cannot be deleted.

hidetanner999 (2008-05-08)

This runs beautifully for virtual machines. My favorite nlite / stripped XP of all time by far. I have to admit, I haven't loaded Opera on it but I don't need non-MS browsers since I'm running those in the host OS X 10.5

saviorx (2008-05-11)

Every experience release, including this one, has no MTP drivers. Is there a way to get it working?
"An error occurred during the installation of the device. The required section was not found in the INF"

iamchris (2008-05-11)

Works, almost fully unattended! Burnt with CDBurnerXP @ 40x no problem with it not being a bootable CD.

farang0 (2008-05-13)

Does this work with OSX and bootcamp / parallels?
I burned the iso, opened bootcamp and created a 30 gig partition, put the cd in and restarted. The install seemed to work perfectly, it copied all of the files and then said it was restarting my computer. When it restarts it says "Disk Error - Press Any Key to restart"
Does this have anything to do with bootcamp making a FAT partition instead of ntfs?
How do I properly install this on my mac?

farang0 (2008-05-13)

Everything I have read says that you need to reformat the bootcamp partition during install. For some strange reason I am not given the option to reformat. I can choose which partition to install to but I cant reformat, only delete.
What do you need to do?

L4gging (2008-05-19)

VERY fast download.
I hit 1.06mb/s download a couple times, but averaged out around 650kb/s.
About to use to repair another computer.
I do have a question, however.
Will this version support plug&play devices such as cameras, webcams, and printers?
Or will i need to locate each driver individually?

stukov (2008-05-19)

How much is the size of the installed windows folder? I"d like to install this one on a ASUS EEE pc!
Is it possible?

fekkly (2008-05-24)

Rev 09 is coming out soon!
From eXPerience:
"Nevermind, because Rev08 is about to be OUTDATED by the far superior Rev09 that has many many more options.
Rev08 was a rush job because SP3 came out - it was not rushed so much that it has bugs... it was tested, but I was able to rush it because it is only one single install, this Rev09 has NINE installs and THREE bootable rescue environments!"
Here's the preview of the initial NFO:

eXPerience Presents...
Windows TinyXP Rev09

Thank you for trying TinyXP Rev09...
To install Windows TinyXP from this CD, set your PC
up so it will boot from the CD-ROM in the PC's BIOS.
You cannot install TinyXP as an "upgrade" from within Windows.
This TinyXP now has a "Repair Option" (Option 9) where you can install
Windows the way you want, your own username, regional and language
options etc. One file was hacked in this untweaked "attended" version so
that you can see the product key on the actual installation screen as
you install Windows. The hacked file is for installation purposes only
and never ends up on your system. This #9 option in the boot menu for XP
is the same as option #2 except in #2 it is an unattended installation
and in #9 it is a standard install where you need to click next, etc.
Or you can choose any of the other eight different flavours of TinyXP.
Options 1 to 8 are all unattended and vary in size and whether they
install with the added drivers or not.
Only install TinyXP onto a freshly formatted partition or hard disk.
There is no upgrade option available in TinyXP, because the option
is removed. You do not need any product key in this release - the
installation of TinyXP is unattended, apart from in the very beginning
where you choose which drive or partition to install to.
Even on option nine, the product key is filled in for you on the
screen, you simply click next without having to type a key in.
All installations are set to US English.

When you boot from this CD you have the following options:
Choosing #1 at the main menu, gives you the following menu:
1 - TinyXP With IE/OE/WMP (With Added Driverpacks)
2 - TinyXP With IE/OE/WMP (Without Added Driverpacks)
3 - TinyXP Without IE/OE/WMP (With Added Driverpacks)
4 - TinyXP Without IE/OE/WMP (Without Added Driverpacks)
5 - TinyXP BARE With IE/OE/WMP (With Added Driverpacks)
6 - TinyXP BARE With IE/OE/WMP (Without Added Driverpacks)
7 - TinyXP BARE Without IE/OE/WMP (With Added Driverpacks)
8 - TinyXP BARE Without IE/OE/WMP (Without Added Driverpacks)
9 - TinyXP With Repair Option (Product Key Already Filled In)
Choosing #2 at the main menu, gives you the following menu:
1 - Acronis Backup + Restore (Safe For Vista)
2 - Damn Small Linux v4.3
3 - Hiren's BootCD v9.5
4 - SpinRite v6.0
Abbreviations from above:
IE ---> Internet Explorer
OE ---> Outlook Express
WMP ---> Windows Media Player

Installations 1 to 8 of TinyXP include the following items,
these are all automatically installed along with Windows:
Service Pack 3 Final (5512)
All Hotfixes Up To May 2008
DirectX DLL Libraries (24 to 36)
Flash Player v9.0.115.0 (IE) - / - Plugin DLL (Firefox/Opera)
Royale Theme (Options 1 to 4) - / - Classic Theme (Options 5 to 8)

Here is a breakdown of the twelve options:
Microsoft Windows XP Professional SP3:
For Microsoft fans...
Options 1, 2, 5 and 6 all include Internet Explorer Web Browser v6,
Outlook Express Email Client and Windows Media Player v9. These older
versions of IE and

fekkly (2008-05-24)

Continued:
Hirens Boot CD v9.5...
Option 3 allows you to boot into Hirens Boot CD version 9.5. This is a
massive collection of more then 200 tools! Including Partition Tools,
Disk Clone Tools, Antivirus Tools, Recovery Tools, Testing Tools,
RAM (Memory) Testing Tools, Hard Disk Tools, System Information Tools,
MBR (Master Boot Record) Tools, BIOS / CMOS Tools, MultiMedia Tools,
Password Tools, NTFS, Ext2FS, Ext3FS (FileSystems) Tools, Dos File
Managers, Dos Tools and Windows Tools. You can boot into Hiren's
and have access to Norton Partition Magic, Paragon Partition Manager,
EasyRecovery... please see the Hirens text file that is in the DOCS
folder on the CD for the full list of tools included in the Hirens
Boot CD.
SpinRite v6.0...
SpinRite attempts to recover data from damaged portions of hard disks
that might not be readable via the operating system. When it encounters
a sector with errors that cannot be corrected by the disk drive's error
correcting code, it tries to read the sector up to 2000 times, and
tries to determine the most probable value of each bit by comparing
the results. The data is then saved onto a new block of the same disk.

EXTRAS folder (CD)
This folder contains:
Internet Explorer 7 Silent Installer
Windows Media Player 11 Silent Installer
eXPerience Registry Tweaks 2008

ISO folder (CD)
If you want to make standalone ISO's of any of the nine Windows
XP installations, you can do this by running one of the four batch
files included in the ISO folder on the CD.
You can also make a separate ISO with the four rescue options
(Acronis + Damn Small Linux + Hiren's BootCD + SpinRite)
See the ISO folder for more info.

OEM folder (CD)
If you want to install the drivers on this CD independently of
installing Windows, this is now possible by running one BAT file.
In the OEM folder on the CD you will find a file called:
INSTALL DRIVERS.bat
Run this INSTALL DRIVERS.bat file and sit back whilst the process unpacks
the drivers, then tries to find any drivers you might need installing,
then installs the drivers, then removes the initial drivers that were
extracted, because they are not needed afterwards.
You can run this INSTALL DRIVERS.bat file anytime, on any x86 Windows XP.
Do not move the BAT file from the OEM folder. If the BAT file is not left
where it is inside the OEM folder, it will not work.

eXPerience folder (Desktop)
Most of these folders contain quick solutions to things that otherwise
would be buried away in the Windows GUI, or you would have to know the
command to run the item, like "control userpasswords2" will open the
screen to change your Windows XP login password, or "intl.cpl" runs the
"Regional and Language Options" from Control Panel.
FOLDERS:
Desktop Icon Layout - Allows you to save your icon setup on the Desktop.
Hibernation - Turns Hibernation on/off with one double click.
Keyboard Settings - Quick way to open "Regional and language Options"
Program Links - Download links to many great programs, all freeware.
Registry Backup - Easily backup your registry in one double click.
Services Configuration Files - Configure Windows to use less RAM.
ShrinkXP Scripts - Removal of components whilst Windows is running.
User Password - Easily change your password for Windows.

Removed Items:
The breakdown of items removed is far too long to list here.
Instead, think about which option you chose (the number)
for example option 3. So then go to this f

ffeuerstein (2008-05-25)

beware: system restore is not only disable, but fucked up (cannot be enabled). also keyboard support for non english keyboards has been removed.

koala101 (2008-05-25)

TinyXP Rev09 is coming up, fixing some issues.
http://thepiratebay.se/tor/4204713/

BellesFesses (2008-05-29)

Please watch out I made the mistake the link is not for windows but for light apps
"TinyXP AppzXP - Windows XP Lite"
Get Windows here while waiting Rev09
I am intersted in the fix and save crashed system hope I can find some explanations for noobs :)
I'll get this from my workshop tomorow
Thank you looks real swell ;)

thuvn205 (2008-06-01)

Here is the TinyXP Rev09 originally:

langendijk14 (2008-06-11)

dit is een virus.. Internet Explorer Crasht na een dag.

langendijk14 (2008-06-11)

Sorry, verkeerde torrent

cali808 (2008-07-21)

thepiratebay.se/user/eXPer1ence

andrew0184 (2008-12-13)

I just installed this distribution (Rev08) on my Asus eee 4G surf notebook and I run some scripts for best performance. I didn't use Rev09 because I wanted windows firewall for this pc which is uninstalled in 09. The main script I run was the script for slight services and a few more which I don't remember and I have some questions.
Which script do I have to run to:
1)To Enable the items in the Language bar (It is shown but it is empty now)
2)To enable Recent Documents.
3)To see again my battery icon on the system's tray!!!
Thank you

andrew0184 (2008-12-14)

Now I lost completely the language bar. This is a big problem. I want to restore language bar and to add the greek language... How can I do it help me please...

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

Restore is totally screwed up man. Why did you disable system restore. Nonsense. Can't even get it running manually following the instructions here...

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

Restore is totally screwed up man. Why did you disable system restore. Nonsense. Can't even get it running manually following the instructions here...

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

Restore is totally screwed up man. Why did you disable system restore. Nonsense. Can't even get it running manually.

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

sorry for multiple post, I thought it doesn't show up because of link.

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

THIS HERE also didn't help !! After applying both fixes I am now able to get the System Restore Tab at least and select options. Also the Service is up and running.
But when clicking on the estrui.exe (System Restore) NOTHING happens.. So still doesnt work.
Good job, eXperience, this is cooked up.

oooocanada (2009-09-20)

Forgot to include this 2nd link ...